Coffee with Charity Fundraiser Yvonne Maclean-Howard
New Series - What Work Means to Me
This is the first interview in a new series called “What Work Means to Me”. It consists of interviews with people, mostly women, who took long career breaks and returned to work. Their reasons for wanting to return to work were many. Money might be on the list but for most, it was lower down the list.
In this series, we highlight the non-financial reasons people have to work - reasons that have real physical and mental consequences for the individual, their family and the larger community.
Work is important to our feelings of self-worth; it keeps us mentally active and gives our lives structure and meaning. Work also offers opportunities to learn, form new relationships and be part of a larger community.
John W Budd, in his 2011 book The Thought of Work, commented that:
“work is too important for individuals and society to be dismissed as a curse, treated as just another commodity or economic resource, or viewed solely as a source of income.”
In other words - sometimes work is about more than money - it’s about a sense of identity, the need to feel valued and the desire to stay active and involved.
In job interviews and in casual conversations with friends, I’ve been asked more times than I can count why I want to work now.
In the interview situation - the men and they are always men - ask what my husband does and if I need to work.
Questions I found inappropriate, infuriating and dismissive of any talents I might offer.
In terms of friends, it’s usually the ones who have been working non-stop that wonder why I want to re-enter the corporate slog when they are thinking of leaving it. It might be a case of the grass is always greener. Unlike the men who interviewed me, my friends know I have talent and know I am capable of hard work.
But still, they don’t understand the deep disappointment I feel that the career I envisioned never materialised and the dread associated with the question: “What do you do for a living?”
Both the interviewers and the friends miss the key point – that work is not necessarily about the money, (although being paid would certainly be nice) but about a sense that I am not done yet, that I’d like another chance to work and use my education, to show my daughters that it is possible to step in and out of work, to be part of something larger than myself, to use my skills and to develop new ones. And, importantly, to feel valued.
Research also backs up the importance of work in terms of our physical and mental health. Staying active, mentally engaged and physically fit will have a big impact on our community and on our health and social systems in the future. As an ageing society, keeping older workers in the workforce will be critical not just for the individual but for our society.
About Yvonne
Once I decided on this series - I knew I wanted Yvonne to be my first interviewee. I wanted others to hear her story and see that you can come back from a 17-year career break.
Yvonne and I went to business school together in the late 80s. We lost contact for a number of years and through social media re-connected.
As you’ll read in the interview, Yvonne started out in advertising and like many of the women, I graduated with imagined a linear upward career path. As Yvonne said to me:
“I feel like our generation got sold a bill of goods. There was this idea that if a man can have a career and a family, we can too. We thought of ourselves as the ‘Working Girl’ in our power suits with equal careers and a family. And then reality hits and in those months you took off [to care for small children], everyone else was pushing forward leaving you behind.”
The other thing Yvonne notes is that staying at home wasn’t necessarily a conscious decision. You think you’ll take a few years off, then you realise it’s been five years and before you know it, it’s 17!
For many women, the decision to stay at home is made in the moment - it’s what’s best for the family and often what makes financial sense, especially when weighing the cost of child care.
And it’s made in the belief that it’s just a step back and not a step out - that it’s temporary and there will be another go around.
What business school did not teach Yvonne or me or the many other incredible women I was at school with was that our competitive value would be fleeting; that everything we did outside of the mainstream workforce from raising our children to volunteering and part-time work would be discounted - even running our own small businesses wouldn’t count for much. That age, experience and commitment to work and learn are not going to get us an interview, let alone a job paying us what we earned in our 20s with a tenth of the experience!
So now that I’ve depressed you - I promise Yvonne’s story will make you feel more hopeful about the possibility and rewards of mid-life career comebacks.
And here’s a fun fact about Yvonne - she took up ice hockey at age 40 and now plays regularly and competitively throughout the winter season! Proving once again we are never too old to start something new!
And now the interview….
Yvonne Maclean-Howard
Manager of Resource Development for Assaulted Women's Helpline
Age: 55
Toronto / London Zoom Coffee
Tell us a little about yourself and your career path.
I started my career in marketing strategy and communications, working for a number of agencies, including Leo Burnett, before going in-house at Thomson Reuters. Then I took a 17-year break.
Today, I'm the Manager of Resource Development for The Assaulted Women's Helpline, which is a fancy way of saying fundraising and communications.
It wasn’t my plan to take such a long break. For several years, I dabbled at returning to work, looking for roles half-heartedly. And then I hit the big Five-O, and I thought it's now or never - plus the kids were at a point where they needed to be more independent.
I then decided I wanted to go into the nonprofit world and not back to the slog of the corporate world.
The roles I considered were significantly below the level I left. So much so that a former colleague and friend heading up a foundation asked me, ‘Are you kidding?' This is so below your capabilities.
And I replied right now, nothing is below me. I felt like I was starting over from ground zero. Thankfully, she wouldn’t let me settle for a position below what I was capable of, and I needed that push.
She said, come in and have a chat. So we met for coffee and she mentioned a role that she thought would be a good fit for me. She made an introduction and that’s how it started. I clicked with the executive director and got the role.
It's been a learning curve. Thankfully, a lot of skills are transferable. I don’t always know the mechanics but can learn and figure out how to get it done.
And now I’ve been doing this for almost five years.
Did you go back full-time?
Yes.
Do you think you needed to go back five days?
I did.
Full-time feels like a real job, not just to me but to others. Part of it was about my self-esteem and wondering can I do this. Can I be perceived as credible? I needed to go back full-time to prove to myself that I could.
Had I gone part-time I would have taken something less challenging, something that I could step in, do and leave. I'm glad I didn't do that. I would have underestimated what I was capable of.
What did your 20-year-old self think her career path would look like when you finished university?
She thought her career would be a straight line and did not foresee these deviations, including a big void in the middle, which was not a void, by the way. She didn’t envision that she would step out for such a long period of time.
I got my degree with the intention of working and having a career. When I went into the ad world, I anticipated a series of forward moves - promotions, overseeing bigger accounts, getting more visibility etc, and then it stopped.
I tried to do something part-time, but it was tough and I was exhausted. I wanted to be present for the kids during the day and so when they went to bed, I worked all evening. I knew something had to give. I did the math and it made sense for me to be home. I didn't expect that I would be at home for so long. I didn't see that part of my life coming.
What advice would your 50-year-old self give your 20-year-old self, knowing what you know now?
1. Stop being so practical. Sometimes you need to follow your curiosity and do things because you're really interested in them.
2. Don't be so judgmental about what you are doing or not doing.
3. Stop measuring yourself against other people and their situations. Certainly, in the role that I'm in right now - it's very clear that what’s presented on the surface and what’s actually happening below are often worlds apart.
4. Be open to new possibilities and be okay about wandering off the path into the woods for a while. You don’t know what you’re going to find there. Life is not going to be a straight line. And that's okay.
5. Measure your wealth in terms of your happiness. Where everybody else is, is where everybody else is, the question is, where do you really want to be?
What were the challenges of re-entering the workforce after a 17-year break?
Some were mental barriers. In early conversations, I felt the need to explain my decision to stay at home.
Instead of apologising and talking about the things I hadn’t done - I needed to flip the conversation and talk about what I could do, why I was a good fit and what I could bring to the table. I had to find confidence in the skills that I had been using all along.
There was relevance in all of that volunteer work I’d been doing. It wasn’t something to be dismissed and considered a nice thing to do. Being able to talk about what I’ve done and feel proud of it was a revelation.
How did you overcome these challenges and mental barriers?
In part, it was having those conversations with other people and having the benefit of friends who are coaches to help and support me.
It’s about working through the process and creating your own script. And importantly, believing in that script and not seeing it as just words on paper. I needed to say to myself that I was ready to do this. And that I had the ability to do it.
Why was it important to you to return to work?
For several reasons:
I felt like I wasn’t finished. I didn't feel like I had the career that I wanted to have or expected to have.
I knew I had something to offer. I got so fed up with those conversations - as soon as someone says, Oh, you're at home - there's just such a dismissiveness. I feel like screaming, I can still talk and think!
I wanted to be employed not just for myself but for my daughter and my sons but especially my daughter. I wanted her to know that if she decided to step off the career path at some point in life, she could step back in.
Also, what am I going to do? I don't feel like I should be put out to pasture before I even got into the game.
But it is more about unfinished business. I never saw myself not working. And I wasn't ready to find yet another hobby.
What advice would you give someone thinking of re-entering the workforce after a break?
You have to be prepared that it's not going to be easy. Most people I know, with few exceptions, go back to the same level they left off or backward. You have to be prepared for that part.
Try and have a lot of different conversations. The more you can express why you want to work and what you can do, the less daunting those interviews will be. Because they are daunting, especially when you haven’t done them for several years.
Learn to feel confident about stepping out of mainstream work. That break was never a break - you were doing things all along. You shouldn't feel self-conscious about that.
And finally, be curious and be prepared to learn your skills.
In the last five years, what new belief, behaviour or habit has most improved your working life (or your approach to creating your post-50 work life)?
I definitely, changed my approach to work.
In my 20s, work was everything - you got up in the morning, you got in early, you stayed late and you threw yourself fully into whatever you were doing. And, that wasn't going to be the case this time around.
Today, I am fully present when I'm at work but the other parts of my life are still important too. It’s learning to put things into their compartment. I will do what you need me to do and more in the hours that you have me, but you don't have me 24 hours.
How do you define success now? Has your definition of success changed?
It’s definitely about finding meaning in the work I do. That’s one of the reasons that I wanted to go into the charitable world. I knew the pay part would be less than ideal but there's value and purpose in what I do.
I remember being in an ad meeting years ago discussing the angle at which a piece of gum goes into someone's mouth and that’s a type of conversation I never want to have ever again! The placement of the gum is not adding meaning to anybody's life. I want to feel good about the work that I'm doing. And I want to know that the work is making a difference to someone somewhere.
A recommendation – is there a book or podcast that has helped to something thinking about how to design their 50+ work life?
It’s not a conventional book. It’s a book called Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants by Robin Wall Kimmerer - a botany professor and an indigenous woman. It's this beautiful harmony of science and storytelling.
One of the things that resonated with me is the idea of taking what you need, not what you want. We're too driven by wants and those wants are often external. There are things you're supposed to want, for example, to own a house but what do you need for your own personal happiness and to find fulfilment in life?
There are a lot of unhappy people that look like they have these glitzy fantastic lives. And there are a lot of very happy people who live a much smaller, simpler life but one with purpose and meaning.
The book, for me was about finding joy and finding meaning in the things that are simple and that you need to be happy and fulfilled, as opposed to chasing the wants. Because they don't add up to an awful lot at the end of the day.
